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hieromonachusaidanus	Western Rite Orthodox News	Lead	[-]
Posts: 376 Oct 1 08 11:05 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Tags : None On Sept. 18, 2008, I became a hieromonk (priest-monk) of the Russian Orthodox Church. On Sept. 29, 2008, my confrere, also formerly in the Milan Synod jurisdiction, Fr. David (Pierce), became a hieromonk of the Russian Orthodox Church. Both Fr. David and I are blessed to use the Sarum service books we have always used. On Sept. 26, 2008, Metropolitan Hilarion of New York (Russian Church Abroad) gave a blessing for all the liturgical texts published by St. Hilarion Press, Austin, Texas, to be used liturgically in the Russian Orthodox Church. This is a momentous time, and I thank those of you who prayed for me so kindly and graciously. I put up photos of some of the priests in the Russian Orthodox Church who currently celebrate in Western rite, plus Fr. John Shaw (since he used to celebrate Western rite regularly and is the father of the Sarum movement in modern Orthodoxy). The photos can be viewed here: http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Western.html Fr. Aidan+ a sinner Last Edited By: hieromonachusaidanus Oct 1 08 11:19 AM. Edited 1 time.
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Latinopadre		#1	[-]
Posts: 1238 Oct 1 08 8:14 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	With prayers that this will continue, until the prayer of our Lord, Ut unum sint, is accomplished.
youngfogey1		#2	[-]
Posts: 280 Oct 5 08 3:13 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Wonderful! I'm happy for you, Father. aconservativesiteforpeace.info
hieromonachusaidanus		#3	[-]
Posts: 376 Oct 6 08 10:33 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Thanks, John, I appreciate it. The hard part will be to establish a Western rite Orthodox monastery in the Eastern United States, a goal the Metropolitan has set before me. Unfortunately, all the property thus far considerable has been located in other dioceses than the one we need to be in. I'm in dialogue with a few parties who are minded to help, but of your charity pray for the fathers who will be joining me (God willing) in the formation of the proposed monastic house and for me. Our hearts are in the right place; we are eager to have a house where traditional monastic life can be practised in reality, the divine office sung, silence and obedience observed rightfully, etc., but in the historic Western, rather than the Eastern-rite, traditions. There are five men interested, but we lack a location at this moment, to make a beginning of it. Thanks again, Fr. Aidan+ a sinner
royalistflyer		#4	[-]
Posts: 1 Oct 9 08 11:30 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Well, I checked with Fr. David and cloeared up a few points in my own mind: 1. He was not received into ROCOR at the same time or place as Fr. Aidan, but like him, he was Ordained upon reception by Metropolitan Hilarion. 2. He is notin the same monastery as Fr. Aidan, in fact on the other side of the country. 3. He does not use the same Sarum that Fr. Aidan uses, and never has. I also checked a few other official sources and I am under the impression that Fr. Aidan's texts are only to be used by him - assuming that he is ever permitted to start a monastery, which I understand may be unlikely. He is for the present assigned to an Eastern Rite parish as an assistant. Interesting.
hieromonachusaidanus		#5	[-]
Posts: 376 Oct 10 08 12:52 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Dear royalistflyer (sorry, I call you that only because I do not know your Christian name as I ought), My own remarks: 1. Indeed. 2. Partially accurate. However, I am not in a monastery at all. I currently share an apartment with my sister and her children. 3. The Sarum Use is a single and recognisable liturgical usage. Fr. David and I may use different translations of some texts, but the usage is of a cloth. To be precise, Fr. Michael uses his translation/version of the Sarum, Fr. Augustine uses his, Fr. David uses his, and I use mine. It is hoped that, over time, a more uniform usage may appear. But such diversity is not too surprising in a situation where something is being pioneered. The last statement could give an impression that I am the secondary priest in an established parish. This is not the case. The parish here is, de facto, a nascent mission, rather than a fully functioning parish. Also, I am the only priest serving it, temporarily, since its rector lives in another part of the state. Think "humblest of circumstances." Most people conclude their shared narrative with "Interesting" if they wish to imply there is something inconsistent, surprising, or outré about the subject. That's why I asked you what your conclusions were, rather than assuming you have one motive or another. For that would be unbecoming of me in truth. Your brother in Christ, Fr. Aidan+ a sinner
hieromonachusaidanus		#6	[-]
Posts: 376 Oct 10 08 12:54 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Royalistflyer, what is your name and what are the names of your parish, your priest, and your jurisdiction? Thanking you in advance, I am Yours in Christ, Fr. Aidan+ a sinner
leoxiii		#7	[-]
Posts: 3521 Oct 10 08 6:03 AM Cyber-Pontiff Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	royalistflyer wrote: Well, I checked with Fr. David and cloeared up a few points in my own mind: I think I see where you're going with this. Please take it over to the Occidentalis list, where the fisticuffs are always flying.
hieromonachusaidanus		#8	[-]
Posts: 376 Oct 10 08 9:42 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	No fisticuffs are necessary or even usual, here or on Occidentalis. I suggest that if someone begins to disparage another member, or to make ad-hominem arguments which show a loss of objectivity, then he can be admonished, or, if need be, the discussion locked. I believe, as a general matter of principle for all public discussion groups, that people who tend to the controversial should be willing to identify themselves. It must be admitted that this helps keep things more civil. Finally, I congratulate you, Joe, and the other moderator, for successfully keeping York Forum a place largely free of polemics. As the moderator of a large group which does not permit polemics or ad-hominem attacks, I appreciate how much work goes into the effort. May God bless you for what you do. Fr. Aidan+ a sinner
jbc1949		#9	[-]
Posts: 6504 Oct 10 08 4:04 PM Camerlengo & Grand Inquisitor Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Royalistflyer and any other lurkers, posters, etc., In line with our illustrious cyber-Pontiff's statements I refer you to the York Forum policy. This policy will be strictly enforced. We have at least three Christian jurisdictions represented by the lay and clerical cyber-parishioners of the York Forum. I am sure that there are serous issues with some very strong opinions held within each major jurisdiction. At least some of these issues are very irksome that naturally excite one's ire. Please do not express any ire here. Frank discussions through charitable delivery are the norm for us. Thanks for your patience and understanding. The Camerlengo a/k/a/ jbc1949 "non omnis moriar" . . . Horace, Odes "Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati" . . . Red Green Show "They see well that all who speak are nothing, for they shall fade away with the sound of their words, but the Lord endures forever." . . . Thomas a Kempis, THE IMITATION OF CHRIST, Book 4, Chapter 14, No. 4 Last Edited By: jbc1949 Oct 10 08 6:55 PM. Edited 1 times.
Aristibule		#10	[-]
Posts: 1331 Oct 11 08 4:41 AM orthodox-okie.blogspot.com Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	In all charity and to clarify : Fr. David of Holyrood House is a member of the Saint Petroc paruchia, and is charged with the care of Fr. Augustine. The latter does not serve the Divine Liturgy as he has been retired since 1993 (he does still pray, of course, one doesn't retire from monasticism). Fr. David does serve the liturgy, and uses the Mount Royal liturgy compiled by Fr. Augustine - which is included in the Saint Colman Prayer Book (used by our paruchia.) He also serves the Sarum rite (I know he has the SCPB text, as well as the complete Old English Mass that Mount Royal compiled some decades ago - Mount Royal having prepared a large amount of material for publication.) The Mount Royal liturgy and the Christminster liturgy are the same; again, included in the Saint Colman Prayer Book alongside the Sarum use and the Sarum-based English liturgy. The Byzantine rite has three liturgies (St. James, St. Basil, St. John Chrysostom) and one more that might be used (St. Mark), and we have three liturgies (Saint Gregory, Sarum use, and English rite), and one more that might be used (St. John the Divine/Celtic-Gallican). The use depends on whether it is monastic or parish/mission: so there are two offices normally followed ... the Monastic Breviary, or the Sarum hours (Cosin/Clewer translation.) The language used in all of these is the same, as are the ornaments, ceremonial, and much else. The only major differences being whether the Monastic or Sarum customs and propers are followed. That being said: the Mount Royal use (and Holyrood) is the 'mother' of that used at Christminster and Saint Petroc: they all are within the same liturgical tradition. Fr. Aidan is right that he has his own version. The other clergy don't have 'different versions' so much as compatible uses of the same origin: our materials all work well together (and are used together). I do not know that 'uniformity' is hoped for - if so, it would be a simple thing to keep the uniformity we've already had (Mount Royal/Sarum/English.) I'm not sure that Fr. Aidan's work is compatible with the others - we have differing wording in so many prayers: the Creed, the Magnificat, etc. There is also some difference in the arrangement of the church itself, rubrics, and customs (for instance, I think the OSRM has the clergy and servers enter the chancel by the side chapels rather than passing under the Rood as done anciently, or in having an unveiled Greek-style square altar without ciborium/tester & riddel/reredoes of oblong shape - like pre-Schism altars.) With such a difference in language, ceremonial, rubrics - it could cause some confusion similar to that with the Byzantine rite, where English translations differ wildly depending on jurisdiction or private translation: e.g. Fr. Ephrem (Lash), Hapgood, Fr. Isaac Lambertson, OCA, GOArch, etc. Fr. Aidan has graciously made his draft of some parts of the new OSRM available on a few lists - though I am unsure if he wants any feedback from those Western Orthodox in ROCOR. I would note that approval for use of a liturgy goes by diocese: for instance, the SCPB has been approved for use in five dioceses of ROCOR so far with further under consideration. I would assume that if Fr. Aidan was given approval that would be for a nascent monastery in the Eastern diocese (one diocese) which has a 33 year history of continuous approved Western rite usage (Mount Royal/Christminster/Holyrood.) All of our clergy are expected to be familiar with the Byzantine rite (and, I think, are supposed to concelebrate at a Byzantine liturgy once or a few times a year?) In the past some (those with knowledge of the Byzantine rite) have been assigned to Byzantine rite parishes - either way, for personal prayer any Orthodox Christian may pray any form of prayers belonging to the Church. We also have 'bi-ritual' clergy - though really any Orthodox priest may serve any approved rite of the Church with the permission of his diocesan bishop. There are in at least four Orthodox jurisdictions that I know of, Orthodox clergy who serve Byzantine rite but pray Western hours privately. (Though, it should be noted that our regular Western rite clergy normally serve only Western rite and are not assigned to Byzantine parishes - but have to have enough knowledge at least when traveling, visiting Byzantine rite parishes or going to the cathedral.) Otherwise, for discussion Ely Forum is the only place that ROCOR WRITE members normally have discussion about ROCOR WRITE matters - those that are online, of course. We don't tend to let the fisticuffs fly though - its not very gentlemanly ( fisticuffs are more appropriate to CeltList!) (And - I wonder whom royalistflyer is as well. Hello. ) www.orthodoxresurgence.com -------------- "When the ship is holed, let the man who can swim swim" - St. Gildas the Wise, Fragments of Lost Letters.
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PriestmonkAmbrose		#11	[-]
Posts: 87 Oct 13 08 11:47 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Aristibule wrote: In all charity and to clarify : We don't tend to let the fisticuffs fly though - its not very gentlemanly ( fisticuffs are more appropriate to CeltList!) _________________ Hmmmm.... In all charity may I, as one of the Moderators of Celtlist, offer the words on its HomePage written by a past Moderator, Fr Sean Lotz of the Celtic Catholic Church. Celt List est. January, A. D. 1998 This is the current home of the ancient and venerable (well, relatively) Celtic Christianity mailing list, generally known simply as "Celt." Celt list is an international, ecumenical, mailing list dedicated to Celtic Christianity in all its aspects: ancient and modern, academic and spiritual. This is a wild and raucous bunch of folk, with a lot of knowledge, a lot of heart, and a lot of Celtic temper -- and sometimes the messages are even on topic! We have found that our greatest treasure is the sense of community which has developed over the years. Therefore, although we make an honest effort to stay topical as much as we can, we are not afraid to stray occasionally into the silly or the purely personal. In fact, once each year we decree a Silly Season dedicated simply to fun and jokes. Whether you are primarily interested in our fathers and mothers in the Faith the saints, history, liturgy, spirituality, aspects ancient or modern, we welcome you to drop in on our Celt list clan. If you like it, please stay. May our gracious God bless you: the Father in his strong hand hold you, the Saviour in his image mould you, the Spirit with his fire enfold you. Fr Sean A. Lotz
leoxiii		#12	[-]
Posts: 3521 Oct 13 08 12:12 PM Cyber-Pontiff Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	All right... We'll allow Western Rite Orthodox and Russian Orthodox to join the forum; but we don't want the Irish!
PriestmonkAmbrose		#13	[-]
Posts: 87 Oct 13 08 12:37 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	leoxiii wrote: All right... We'll allow Western Rite Orthodox and Russian Orthodox to join the forum; but we don't want the Irish! ----------------------------------------------------------- Now, haven't we been doing our very best for the Church?! A long time ago we set out and evangelised much of central/northern Europe and then we had to go back and re-evangelise it. Then last century all my aunts and uncles entered the Orders and rushed off to missionise Africa and Asia and Australia..... Has there been any discussion of the Lorrha Missal on the Forum?
jbc1949	You don't want the Irish . . . Leo?????	#14	[-]
Posts: 6504 Oct 13 08 6:51 PM Camerlengo & Grand Inquisitor Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	In that case your own Camerlengo a/k/a Torqy is hosed! I am Irish (and Spanish and German). In fact my illustrious Irish forebears were horse thieves from County Galway! There may have been others from County Kerry or Cork; I don't remember exactly . . . One too many scotch whiskeys (Yeah, I know. I just can't take that Irish hootch! LOL ). Camy "non omnis moriar" . . . Horace, Odes "Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati" . . . Red Green Show "They see well that all who speak are nothing, for they shall fade away with the sound of their words, but the Lord endures forever." . . . Thomas a Kempis, THE IMITATION OF CHRIST, Book 4, Chapter 14, No. 4
PriestmonkAmbrose		#15	[-]
Posts: 87 Oct 13 08 7:21 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Aristibule wrote: Fr. David of Holyrood House is a member of the Saint Petroc paruchia, ----------------------------------------------------------- I am familiar with parruchiae in the Old Irish context. But I do not see how it would have any relevance to those who are today using an Anglo-Norman Rite (Sarum). Can anybody explain what a parruchia is in this context. Maybe supply the relevant canon law of the Russian Orthodox Church which defines it and its operations. It seems to cut across diocesan boundaries, something which is virtually unknown in the Orthodox world although quite familiar in the Roman Catholic and Anglican world where religious societies are often outside the control of the local bishop. They form international and extra-diocesan bodies. However, Canon XXXIV of the First Synod of Saint Patrick restricts a parruchia to the limits of a particular diocese. The purpose of this canon was to prevent abbot-bishops entering other dioceses, establishing monasteries affiliated with their own and causing divisions in another diocese. Last Edited By: PriestmonkAmbrose Oct 13 08 7:26 PM. Edited 2 times.
hieromonachusaidanus		#16	[-]
Posts: 376 Oct 13 08 10:02 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I spoke by phone with Fr. David just a week and a half ago. He told me he uses the Sarum Mass packets produced by Abp. John (LoBue) of the Milan Synod. > ... Fr. David of Holyrood House is a member of the Saint Petroc paruchia, .... > ... That being said: the Mount Royal use (and Holyrood) is the 'mother' of that used at Christminster and Saint Petroc: they all are within the same liturgical tradition. Yes, we all use some variant of the Roman rite. But it must be pointed out that there is scarcely any difference between "my" Sarum usages, and Fr. David's (with the sheets from New Jersey) and Fr. Michael's with "his" Sarum usages (with the Pearson missal), when compared to the much greater difference between all of the above and Fr. Augustine's usage of Mt. Royal. > ... I'm not sure that Fr. Aidan's work is compatible with the others... Be assured, it works handily and easily in tandem with the others. > ... we have differing wording in so many prayers: the Creed, the Magnificat, etc. We may have a different wording of the Creed (I use the standard ROCOR one, though I am open to persuasion on that score), but the Magnificat translation Fr. David uses is the same as the one I use. It's simply the prevalent ROCOR wording. > ... There is also some difference in the arrangement of the church itself, rubrics, and customs (for instance, I think the OSRM has the clergy and servers enter the chancel by the side chapels rather than passing under the Rood as done anciently, ... That is not the case. > ... or in having an unveiled Greek-style square altar ... That is not the case. > ... without ciborium/tester & riddel/reredoes of oblong shape - like pre-Schism altars.) With such a difference in language, ceremonial, rubrics ... The differences really are rather slight, which is reassuring. > ... Fr. Aidan has graciously made his draft of some parts of the new OSRM available on a few lists - though I am unsure if he wants any feedback from those Western Orthodox in ROCOR. Have no doubt that I am very eager for feedback from my WR brethren. Indeed, this is the major motive behind making the drafts available and then publicising the fact. The work has been to a large degree a collaborative effort with WR clergy of the Russian Orthodox Church since 1975, to begin with. But also last year I provided drafts to Fr. Anthony Nelson for comments, and to Fr. John, and to Fr. David, and now to Ari and Fr. Michael as well. A number of other Orthodox clergy and Latinists also received draft pages last year. > ... Otherwise, for discussion Ely Forum is the only place that ROCOR WRITE members normally have discussion about ROCOR WRITE matters... Ely Forum, naturally, but don't forget our lively discussions on York Forum, and Occidentalis, and OrthodoxWest. And that's not an exhaustive list. > ... (And - I wonder whom royalistflyer is as well. Hello. ) Since Fr. Michael (Mansbridge-Wood) was in the Royal Australian Air Force from 1961 to 1966, and has a very wide variety of contacts both Anglican and Orthodox, all across the globe (Metropolitan Hilarion expressed to me in mid-September how amazed he was at these extensive church contacts of Fr. Michael's), he just may know who this poster is. Fr. Aidan+ a sinner
PriestmonkAmbrose		#17	[-]
Posts: 87 Oct 13 08 10:26 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	royalistflyer wrote: Well, I checked with Fr. David and cloeared up a few points in my own mind: 1. He was not received into ROCOR at the same time or place as Fr. Aidan, but like him, he was Ordained upon reception by Metropolitan Hilarion. ______________________________________________________________ Fr David's godfather at the time of his reception into Orthodoxy in 1980 is a Russian priest and he was also at his reception into the Russian Church two weeks ago. He informs us that the Metropolitan made a decision not to ordain Fr David but to receive him by heirothesia. Fr Aidan was also not ordained upon his reception but received by heirothesia.
PriestmonkAmbrose		#18	[-]
Posts: 87 Oct 13 08 10:53 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	hieromonachusaidanus wrote: Since Fr. Michael (Mansbridge-Wood) ... _________________________________________ Dear Father Aidan, Since you have brought up the name of my brother monk in the Russian diocese in Australia there is, it strikes me, a most interesting dichotomy in the manner of reception into the Russian Church of Fr Michael and of yourself and Fr David a few days ago. In your case and Fr David's your Baptism and Ordination were accepted and you were received by heirothesia which is viewed as a way of correcting any possible anomalies in your former Ordination. However, Father Michael Mansbridge-Wood was received from the Anglican Church by a full re-baptism, and then re-ordination. This is all the more surprising in that he was, at the time, the Anglican Archdeacon of London. Do you have an ideas why your reception and his were handled so very differently by the Russian Church?
hieromonachusaidanus		#19	[-]
Posts: 376 Oct 14 08 9:11 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Fr. Ambrose, To be quite honest, the Metropolitan did not go into his reasoning with me, nor did I ask. I simply accepted his decision without hesitation--my stance since 2004. Fr. Aidan+ sinner
jbc1949		#20	[-]
Posts: 6504 Oct 14 08 6:34 PM Camerlengo & Grand Inquisitor Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	received by heirothesia This is by "vesting," right? "non omnis moriar" . . . Horace, Odes "Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati" . . . Red Green Show "They see well that all who speak are nothing, for they shall fade away with the sound of their words, but the Lord endures forever." . . . Thomas a Kempis, THE IMITATION OF CHRIST, Book 4, Chapter 14, No. 4
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